akred
01-21 12:30 PM
My guess is that except for the early years (2001, maybe 2002), EB-2 timelines will be almost identical to EB-3.
Supporting reasons are -
1. As things stand today, EB-2 differs from EB-3 only in the amount of wages required when filing the petition.
2. EB-3 filers will naturally earn more money with experience and file fresh for EB-2 when they can.
Other things such as qualifications and 5 years of experience are easily obtained and not relevant with such long timelines.
Supporting reasons are -
1. As things stand today, EB-2 differs from EB-3 only in the amount of wages required when filing the petition.
2. EB-3 filers will naturally earn more money with experience and file fresh for EB-2 when they can.
Other things such as qualifications and 5 years of experience are easily obtained and not relevant with such long timelines.
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logiclife
08-03 02:30 PM
Copying from the reply I posted here:
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?p=133404#post133404
I consulted a high profile ($200 per 15 minutes) lawyer to discuss this issue. 1) He told me that he would re-submit the AOS. The comparison to the medical clearance requirement, according to him, was pointless, as they are two different things. If USCIS issues a statement they will not reject solely based on the EVL, then we can assume that is the truth. Their statement on Medical clearance cannot be interpreted to say they won't reject on the basis of another missing requirement, say the EVL.
2) Filing two AOS packets can indeed also cause confusion, but it is a smaller risk according to him, and should be mitigated by a covering letter that says you are re-submitting to provide the XYZ document that was missed from the first packet.
Based on this info, I have asked my lawyer to get a confirmation from the USCIS on the document that he missed in my case-- the EVL. If USCIS okays that, we do not resubmit. If they don't do that within a week, I will try to re-submit... not going to be easy considering my lawyer may not be in agreement... but that is what would be the correct way out of this, according to the second opinion I got today.
Thanks
If you are resubmmitting or planning to resubmit, one tip...you need medical originals again, so call your doctor and ask him to create new sealed envelopes with original I-693...do this ahead of time coz this is only thing not in your control when filing a second 485. I am sure you might have thought about this, but just in case if you havent, then remember you will need I-693 original with your and doctor's signature with other stuff in sealed envelopes again.
Wish you all the luck Abhijit.
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?p=133404#post133404
I consulted a high profile ($200 per 15 minutes) lawyer to discuss this issue. 1) He told me that he would re-submit the AOS. The comparison to the medical clearance requirement, according to him, was pointless, as they are two different things. If USCIS issues a statement they will not reject solely based on the EVL, then we can assume that is the truth. Their statement on Medical clearance cannot be interpreted to say they won't reject on the basis of another missing requirement, say the EVL.
2) Filing two AOS packets can indeed also cause confusion, but it is a smaller risk according to him, and should be mitigated by a covering letter that says you are re-submitting to provide the XYZ document that was missed from the first packet.
Based on this info, I have asked my lawyer to get a confirmation from the USCIS on the document that he missed in my case-- the EVL. If USCIS okays that, we do not resubmit. If they don't do that within a week, I will try to re-submit... not going to be easy considering my lawyer may not be in agreement... but that is what would be the correct way out of this, according to the second opinion I got today.
Thanks
If you are resubmmitting or planning to resubmit, one tip...you need medical originals again, so call your doctor and ask him to create new sealed envelopes with original I-693...do this ahead of time coz this is only thing not in your control when filing a second 485. I am sure you might have thought about this, but just in case if you havent, then remember you will need I-693 original with your and doctor's signature with other stuff in sealed envelopes again.
Wish you all the luck Abhijit.
msp1976
12-13 10:07 AM
Hi
I am Mukund From Edison NJ...
msp1976@yahoo.com
I am Mukund From Edison NJ...
msp1976@yahoo.com
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shantanup
11-18 10:11 AM
Receipt number: 2008065217
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abhijitp
07-24 12:16 AM
Pappu, Others:
My lawyer confirmed they were "unable to" include the Employment Verification Letter along with the AOS/ EAD/ AP packet that was submitted in time to reach USCIS on July 2.
What are my options now? If you have any insight please let me know.
I was wondering about doing one or both of the following two things:
1. Send Employment Verification Letter even before Receipt Notice is received for I-485. This is likely to be lost in the mess that it is now, but does not hurt trying!
2. Prepare and send another I-485 with all documents including Employment Verification Letter. Even if this is not recommended by some lawyers, I would think this is better than simply relying on the "common" practice of issuing an RFE instead of outright rejecting the I-485.
Thanks!
My lawyer confirmed they were "unable to" include the Employment Verification Letter along with the AOS/ EAD/ AP packet that was submitted in time to reach USCIS on July 2.
What are my options now? If you have any insight please let me know.
I was wondering about doing one or both of the following two things:
1. Send Employment Verification Letter even before Receipt Notice is received for I-485. This is likely to be lost in the mess that it is now, but does not hurt trying!
2. Prepare and send another I-485 with all documents including Employment Verification Letter. Even if this is not recommended by some lawyers, I would think this is better than simply relying on the "common" practice of issuing an RFE instead of outright rejecting the I-485.
Thanks!
johnamit
06-13 10:19 AM
I have seen this same footage months ago and to it don't look real, its cooked. Some facts there are just un-digestible like the gora guy will take job of a waiter immediately after working as senior exec. cmon market is not that bad unless he don't know anything else and don't have ability to get other similar job, then he should be fired anyways. and then that carlos guy, his dress up don't seems convincing that other execs will give me good response after presentation. its all cooked... showing 600k+ numbers are all bogus.
Please check this out...might give you guys some hope and laughter :)
immigration_the_human_cost (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/immigration_the_human_cost)
Please check this out...might give you guys some hope and laughter :)
immigration_the_human_cost (http://www.theonion.com/content/video/immigration_the_human_cost)
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bang
10-16 10:42 AM
Please participate in EB3 PollSee my details in Signature
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reno_john
06-18 03:55 PM
For people who want to file I-485 filing on their own. Since 485 filing requires only one document from the employer (Employer's letter saying you have the job and its the same job description), its possible to file 485 by oneself without additional help from lawyer or employer. This is a thread for that purpose. Even those who have the help and attention of a good lawyer can use this thread for guidance. This is the initial list of documents that are required for 485 filing and the optional EAD and AP filing. The fee structure is scheduled to change after July 30th. The fees listed below are applicable now thru July 29th.
I-485 DOCUMENT CHECKLIST
1. Payment Checks (USCIS Filing Fees $325.00 in favor of 'United States Citizenship and Immigration Service' OR 'USCIS').
Original fee plus $70.00 biometrics services fee if you are 14 years of age or older. If you are under 14 years of age, the fee is $225.00 with no biometric services fee. If you are 79 years of age or older, the fee is $325.00 with no biometrics services fee.
Fillable I-485 form:
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-485.pdf
Application is sent to:
USCIS Nebraska Service Center
P.O. Box 87485
Lincoln, NE 68501-7485
2. Form G-28 one with each Application form. Dont need this if you are doing it on your own without the lawyer. If doing on your own, you can fill out G-28 for your spouse, if you are filling out the forms and doing paperwork for your spouse. G-28 shows that the applicant is being represented etc. If you and your spouse are both filling out your own forms and signing them then you may not need G-28 for anything.
3. Two Photographs per 1-485,1-131,1-765
4. Completed form 1-485 for Adjustment of Status
5. Completed Period of Stay form. Completed in chronological order starting with first entry into US, and all changes of status, extensions, exits and entries, down to your current status.
6. Evidence of Valid Nonimmigrant Status:
Copies of both sides of any and all 1-94 cards
Copies of all 1-797 approval notices
Copies of any and all I-20's (if applicable, both sides)
Copies of all IAP 66 forms
Copies of all PT Work Authorization Cards (if applicable)
Copies of All pages of passport - INCLUDING BLANK PAGES AND PLEASE DO NOT MAKE TWO SIDED COPIES; ONE COPY PER PAGE AND MAKE SURE THAT COPIES ARE LEGIBLE
COMPLETED FORM G-325A Biographic Sheet
I-693 form( Every civil surgeon mostly has this form)
Completed Form 1-693 Medical Examination (SEALED) along with copy of list of INS approved Civil Surgeons
Birth Certificates and Marriage Certificate COPIES and other evidence of birth/marriage. One marriage certificate needed per person
Employment Letter in Format
Original for employee, copy for all other
I-765/EAD DOCUMENT CHECKLIST (Optional)
Documents required for EAD/I-765 per person:
Completed Form I-765 (EAD):
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-765.pdf
2 photos(full frontal)
USCIS filing fee - $180.00 check payable to 'United States Citizenship and Immigration Service' OR 'USCIS' with your SSN# and I-765 mentioned in the comments section of the check
Copy of past EAD card front/back sides
Copy of recent I-94 card (both sides)
Copy of visa page of passport in color
Copy of driver's license
Copy of I-485 receipt notice (if applicable)
Copy of I-140 approval notice
Copy of Marriage certificate (if applying for spouse)
I-131/Advance Parole DOCUMENT CHECKLIST (Optional)
Documents required for Advance parole/ I-131 per person:
Completed form I-131
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-131.pdf
2 photos (full frontal)
USCIS filing fee - $170.00 check payable to 'United States Citizenship and Immigration Service' OR 'USCIS' with your SSN# and I-131 mentioned in the comments section of the check
copy of EAD card front/back sides,
Copy of I-94 card,
Copy of visa page of passport in color,
Copy of driver's license,
Copy of I-485 receipt notice,
Copy of I-140 approval notice,
Copy of Marriage certificate,
Copy of birth certificate for children and a letter explaining the reason for travel
Signed statement requesting advance parole
I-485 DOCUMENT CHECKLIST
1. Payment Checks (USCIS Filing Fees $325.00 in favor of 'United States Citizenship and Immigration Service' OR 'USCIS').
Original fee plus $70.00 biometrics services fee if you are 14 years of age or older. If you are under 14 years of age, the fee is $225.00 with no biometric services fee. If you are 79 years of age or older, the fee is $325.00 with no biometrics services fee.
Fillable I-485 form:
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-485.pdf
Application is sent to:
USCIS Nebraska Service Center
P.O. Box 87485
Lincoln, NE 68501-7485
2. Form G-28 one with each Application form. Dont need this if you are doing it on your own without the lawyer. If doing on your own, you can fill out G-28 for your spouse, if you are filling out the forms and doing paperwork for your spouse. G-28 shows that the applicant is being represented etc. If you and your spouse are both filling out your own forms and signing them then you may not need G-28 for anything.
3. Two Photographs per 1-485,1-131,1-765
4. Completed form 1-485 for Adjustment of Status
5. Completed Period of Stay form. Completed in chronological order starting with first entry into US, and all changes of status, extensions, exits and entries, down to your current status.
6. Evidence of Valid Nonimmigrant Status:
Copies of both sides of any and all 1-94 cards
Copies of all 1-797 approval notices
Copies of any and all I-20's (if applicable, both sides)
Copies of all IAP 66 forms
Copies of all PT Work Authorization Cards (if applicable)
Copies of All pages of passport - INCLUDING BLANK PAGES AND PLEASE DO NOT MAKE TWO SIDED COPIES; ONE COPY PER PAGE AND MAKE SURE THAT COPIES ARE LEGIBLE
COMPLETED FORM G-325A Biographic Sheet
I-693 form( Every civil surgeon mostly has this form)
Completed Form 1-693 Medical Examination (SEALED) along with copy of list of INS approved Civil Surgeons
Birth Certificates and Marriage Certificate COPIES and other evidence of birth/marriage. One marriage certificate needed per person
Employment Letter in Format
Original for employee, copy for all other
I-765/EAD DOCUMENT CHECKLIST (Optional)
Documents required for EAD/I-765 per person:
Completed Form I-765 (EAD):
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-765.pdf
2 photos(full frontal)
USCIS filing fee - $180.00 check payable to 'United States Citizenship and Immigration Service' OR 'USCIS' with your SSN# and I-765 mentioned in the comments section of the check
Copy of past EAD card front/back sides
Copy of recent I-94 card (both sides)
Copy of visa page of passport in color
Copy of driver's license
Copy of I-485 receipt notice (if applicable)
Copy of I-140 approval notice
Copy of Marriage certificate (if applying for spouse)
I-131/Advance Parole DOCUMENT CHECKLIST (Optional)
Documents required for Advance parole/ I-131 per person:
Completed form I-131
http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/I-131.pdf
2 photos (full frontal)
USCIS filing fee - $170.00 check payable to 'United States Citizenship and Immigration Service' OR 'USCIS' with your SSN# and I-131 mentioned in the comments section of the check
copy of EAD card front/back sides,
Copy of I-94 card,
Copy of visa page of passport in color,
Copy of driver's license,
Copy of I-485 receipt notice,
Copy of I-140 approval notice,
Copy of Marriage certificate,
Copy of birth certificate for children and a letter explaining the reason for travel
Signed statement requesting advance parole
more...
nag2007
04-03 01:52 PM
Not yet Filed EAD. PD MARCH 2005
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actaccord
02-14 08:50 AM
ppl...don't wait till last minute...
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chanduv23
03-17 10:08 AM
Substitute labors for EB2 should not IMPACT the delay more than 3 to 6 months. The reason is total EB2 labor india cases approved in 2004 itself is 3500(Straight out of DOL database, published on this forum last year). Some of these cases may have been substituted, worst case, lets say 100% of them applied to I-485. Now the number is 3 times that of 3500. that is 10500(including spouse and 1 child on average).
Another thing you need to consider is If anycase had a PD before sept 2004 and was filed for I-485 before July 2007. That must have got the approval unless there was a namecheck delay.
That should reduce the number to half., 5500(including dependent cases). This is my educated guess, Please dont pick on me. It wont help anybody.
Below are 3 categories left as per my analysis....
1) the applications filed in or after july 2007 OR
2) applications had a PD after sept 2004
3) Namecheck delayed cases.
Chances are that the volume of Subsitutions and porting PD is massive in July , 2007. Almost every Tom, Dick and Harry filed for 485 at that time. News spread like wild fire about the availability of visas and lawyers and consulting companies wanted to do maximum utilization and maximum business. People applied substituted labors for their cousins, friends etc.... and got EAD and AP, May not be working for the sponsering employer.
Another thing you need to consider is If anycase had a PD before sept 2004 and was filed for I-485 before July 2007. That must have got the approval unless there was a namecheck delay.
That should reduce the number to half., 5500(including dependent cases). This is my educated guess, Please dont pick on me. It wont help anybody.
Below are 3 categories left as per my analysis....
1) the applications filed in or after july 2007 OR
2) applications had a PD after sept 2004
3) Namecheck delayed cases.
Chances are that the volume of Subsitutions and porting PD is massive in July , 2007. Almost every Tom, Dick and Harry filed for 485 at that time. News spread like wild fire about the availability of visas and lawyers and consulting companies wanted to do maximum utilization and maximum business. People applied substituted labors for their cousins, friends etc.... and got EAD and AP, May not be working for the sponsering employer.
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rsayed
03-12 08:25 AM
It's a classic case of "khoda pahaad, nikla chuha"...(dug a mountain, only to find a rat)...:D
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belmontboy
11-12 08:19 PM
I am not sure what lobbying efforts would do for us, haven't worked so far...In my opinion we need more media visibility which makes politicians to take notice of us. In these troubled times they are open to any kind of ideas that would help the housing market.
Just show the real numbers to the media -
Approx 0.5 million people (well educated with decent earnings)
Atleast 50 to 60% of these people could potentially buy houses if immigration related uncertainities are gone
Potentially quarter of million buyers for houses, that is a lot!!
I leave it up to IV core to followup on these ideas. I repeat, as I have done so many times, it is all about marketing + media presence. We won the July 2007 visa bulletin battle because of adverse media reaction to the state department. Grass roots stuff is all good, but no one will ever notice it.
Enough of "ideating" and start "implementing" [courtesy: IBM ads] :D
Just show the real numbers to the media -
Approx 0.5 million people (well educated with decent earnings)
Atleast 50 to 60% of these people could potentially buy houses if immigration related uncertainities are gone
Potentially quarter of million buyers for houses, that is a lot!!
I leave it up to IV core to followup on these ideas. I repeat, as I have done so many times, it is all about marketing + media presence. We won the July 2007 visa bulletin battle because of adverse media reaction to the state department. Grass roots stuff is all good, but no one will ever notice it.
Enough of "ideating" and start "implementing" [courtesy: IBM ads] :D
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newuser
10-20 01:27 PM
Faxed
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chmur
03-23 08:56 PM
After arriving in US , typically It takes about a year or two before you start ur GC process.(Initial job/city jumping )
So most of the applicants in 01-02 arrived during the halcyon days of 99-00.
with this analogy, I don't expect too many applicant in 03-04
So most of the applicants in 01-02 arrived during the halcyon days of 99-00.
with this analogy, I don't expect too many applicant in 03-04
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arsh007
01-30 03:49 PM
1. Asking employees to pay for H1 costs is not legal. It would be in violations of CFR.
2. That is also illegal. Employer cannot ask employee to pay for payroll taxes that the employer owes IRS, and too, when you are not even working. It would be an attempt to cover-up the violation of immigration law: Not paying on bench. The only alternative to all that is cancelling her H1 if she cannot find project and if they cannot pay her, but that again would cost money. Damn its too expensive to operate a business legally obeying every friggin law.
3. If you are paying for H1 (which is really not legal) what would you refund them?
So whether you want to tell them "Go to hell" depends on how much you want the job and how much bending/breaking of law can you do.
Point 3 was for the employer refunding the employee for the H1 costs after completing 6 months on project.
Well it is an accepted fact that Employers need to pay for H1 sponsorship but desi companies hardly follow the rules. Well I don't understand from you point above why paying for H1 expenses means I am breaking the law. Rather it should be the employer who is breaking the law.
2. That is also illegal. Employer cannot ask employee to pay for payroll taxes that the employer owes IRS, and too, when you are not even working. It would be an attempt to cover-up the violation of immigration law: Not paying on bench. The only alternative to all that is cancelling her H1 if she cannot find project and if they cannot pay her, but that again would cost money. Damn its too expensive to operate a business legally obeying every friggin law.
3. If you are paying for H1 (which is really not legal) what would you refund them?
So whether you want to tell them "Go to hell" depends on how much you want the job and how much bending/breaking of law can you do.
Point 3 was for the employer refunding the employee for the H1 costs after completing 6 months on project.
Well it is an accepted fact that Employers need to pay for H1 sponsorship but desi companies hardly follow the rules. Well I don't understand from you point above why paying for H1 expenses means I am breaking the law. Rather it should be the employer who is breaking the law.
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go_guy123
05-26 07:38 PM
I am sure you are not going to be silent and also going to act like a puppet when the border patrol will ask you. I have seen the similar case, when I was travelling back from india this fellow was ahead of me in the line at POE , his photo from the passport fall off and when he went to the officer and the officer asked what is this.. he was talking like a shivering cat. After interrogating him for an hour or so, he was let go.
Luckily he was sitting next to me in the connecting flight, and now he was telling me the story in a totally different way. " I told the officer what can I do if the photo from the passport fall off".
"I am waiting , but make sure that I get my connecting flight I got a very important meeting"... blah blah..
I was laughing out loud in my heart.. Its quite interesting to see these kind of personalities.
So I know what you gonna do , next time when you meet the border patrol. Accept the fact that we are middle class , god and immigration fearing creatures, who definitely have a lot of anger and aggression towards these laws and discrimination but cannot do anything about it and Also we like the life style and show off to the relatives in the India, that you are smart and rich NRI, are the reasons, we are not leaving this country despite of all these things.
Good to know all this so while travelling just be prepared.. but I dun see a reason for making this coversation of 10 pages thread.
Well I am gonna get more reds.. but I dun care.
psaxena....you are the man....or woman (i dont know). every line is true.
Luckily he was sitting next to me in the connecting flight, and now he was telling me the story in a totally different way. " I told the officer what can I do if the photo from the passport fall off".
"I am waiting , but make sure that I get my connecting flight I got a very important meeting"... blah blah..
I was laughing out loud in my heart.. Its quite interesting to see these kind of personalities.
So I know what you gonna do , next time when you meet the border patrol. Accept the fact that we are middle class , god and immigration fearing creatures, who definitely have a lot of anger and aggression towards these laws and discrimination but cannot do anything about it and Also we like the life style and show off to the relatives in the India, that you are smart and rich NRI, are the reasons, we are not leaving this country despite of all these things.
Good to know all this so while travelling just be prepared.. but I dun see a reason for making this coversation of 10 pages thread.
Well I am gonna get more reds.. but I dun care.
psaxena....you are the man....or woman (i dont know). every line is true.
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pointlesswait
11-11 11:01 PM
great idea...but which moron will give u a loan is the million dollar question...
:D
WE SHOULD try to MARKET HOW the high tech IMMIGRANTS CAN HELP THE HOUSING MESS BY BUYING HOUSES.
Did anyone listen to NPR on this topic recently? Looks like people are open to the idea, but some one has to give more visibility to this topic. Can IV do it.....
:D
WE SHOULD try to MARKET HOW the high tech IMMIGRANTS CAN HELP THE HOUSING MESS BY BUYING HOUSES.
Did anyone listen to NPR on this topic recently? Looks like people are open to the idea, but some one has to give more visibility to this topic. Can IV do it.....
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keshtwo
07-09 04:40 PM
I hope this lawsuit fails. Looking ahead this lawsuit, if it succeeds might do us more damage than good. Law of unintended consequences states that something can happen we haven't thought of.
Supposing, if lawsuit goes ahead and wins, one outcome might be - USCIS might start adhering to strict interpretation of 7% per country, or curtail spillovers drastically. Then we are in deep shit.
Supposing, if lawsuit goes ahead and wins, one outcome might be - USCIS might start adhering to strict interpretation of 7% per country, or curtail spillovers drastically. Then we are in deep shit.
bheemi123
10-03 01:29 PM
I am on L1A visa with Company A & the I-94 was valid till September 10, 2007.
Company B has filed my H1B on April 20, 2007 & I received I797 notice dated May 17, 2007 with change of status from Oct 1, 2007.
In the meantime, Company A has filed an extention of status of L1A from September 10, 2007 on June 8, 2007. For which I received the I797 notice dated June 28, 2007.
I have few question
1. What is my status from Oct 1, 2007, as I did not joined the company B. I am not in a position to leave Company A till Nov 15, 2007. As the I797 for L1 extention was of the latter date, whether the law of last action will be applicable here & I can work for Company A on L1 till Nov 15, 2007
2. If I can work on L1, whether my H1B approval get cancelled automatically. Whether the company B have to file I129 & I539 for me.
3. If I am out of status what should I do. Do i have go back to my native country immediately & leave to idea to work in USA for ever or there is any other way.
i did exactly like you..
Only thing need you to do is u can be with l1 with current company until nov 15th after that..u can work for h1b company..but remember if u want to continue to work for company A forever means not going to use h1b ..then u have to leave the country and then enter the country on l1 visa....if u want to use h1b in nov then it is fine to work with l1...i did that ..and had visa stamps 2 times afterwards...there were no problems...
Company B has filed my H1B on April 20, 2007 & I received I797 notice dated May 17, 2007 with change of status from Oct 1, 2007.
In the meantime, Company A has filed an extention of status of L1A from September 10, 2007 on June 8, 2007. For which I received the I797 notice dated June 28, 2007.
I have few question
1. What is my status from Oct 1, 2007, as I did not joined the company B. I am not in a position to leave Company A till Nov 15, 2007. As the I797 for L1 extention was of the latter date, whether the law of last action will be applicable here & I can work for Company A on L1 till Nov 15, 2007
2. If I can work on L1, whether my H1B approval get cancelled automatically. Whether the company B have to file I129 & I539 for me.
3. If I am out of status what should I do. Do i have go back to my native country immediately & leave to idea to work in USA for ever or there is any other way.
i did exactly like you..
Only thing need you to do is u can be with l1 with current company until nov 15th after that..u can work for h1b company..but remember if u want to continue to work for company A forever means not going to use h1b ..then u have to leave the country and then enter the country on l1 visa....if u want to use h1b in nov then it is fine to work with l1...i did that ..and had visa stamps 2 times afterwards...there were no problems...
grinch
02-15 07:39 PM
Well if you don't know how to start off, the first thing I do for every project, is create basic geometry, so I can get a basic idea of the scale. Then I start working off of it.
Here's part of my basic geometry.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v403/grinchvader/ex.jpg
"Start off simple, understand what your creating, dont rush things" thats what I was told by pro 3d'ers
Here's part of my basic geometry.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v403/grinchvader/ex.jpg
"Start off simple, understand what your creating, dont rush things" thats what I was told by pro 3d'ers